# 139: Notes From Bunderground, with Tony Karon of AJ+ Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffOhtRdzQR4 Recap page: https://rapidrecap.app/video/ffOhtRdzQR4 Generated: 2025-09-04T23:30:27.147+00:00 --- ## Quick Overview Tony Karon, former editorial lead at AJ+, discusses his experiences as a student activist in South Africa and draws parallels to contemporary activism, particularly concerning Palestinian liberation, emphasizing the importance of grassroots organizing, understanding historical context, and the psychological impact of constructed trauma narratives like the Holocaust, which he argues are manipulated by Zionism to maintain a specific political agenda. **Key Points:** - Tony Karon highlights that the South African liberation movement's success stemmed from building a mass movement by creating civic organizations, women's, student, youth, and trade unions, a strategy he contrasts with less effective small-scale guerrilla actions. - Karon explains that his anti-Zionist stance developed through his involvement in Habonim, a South African Zionist youth movement, where he encountered critiques of Zionism and the Nakba from within the Jewish community, stating, "it's like, oh okay if Jews are saying it then it must mean it can't be anti-Semitic." - He critiques the "constructed Holocaust memory" and "traumatization industry" within Zionism, arguing it's used to implant a sense of perpetual victimhood and prevent a broader understanding of historical injustices, such as the Native American genocide or slavery. - Karon draws parallels between the anti-apartheid struggle and the Palestinian liberation movement, noting that settler colonial regimes like both apartheid South Africa and Israel derive legitimacy from a perceived alignment with the West, and that international reproach, particularly through cultural boycotts, has a significant psychological impact. - The conversation touches on the shift in public perception regarding Israel, evidenced by the booing of Israelis at a Coldplay concert, which Karon interprets as a sign that "the information war has been lost" by those supporting Israel. - Karon emphasizes that strategic activism, whether in South Africa or the US regarding Palestine, should focus on building power and weakening the opposing camp, suggesting that actions which disrupt the status quo, even if seemingly self-interested like refusing military conscription, contribute to this goal by weakening the regime. **Context:** This podcast episode features an interview with Tony Karon, a former editorial lead at AJ+ and an activist with experience in the South African liberation movement. The discussion, hosted by Matt Leeb and Daniel Mate of the 'Bad Hasbara' podcast, delves into Karon's personal journey from Zionist youth activism in South Africa to his current anti-Zionist stance. It explores the historical context of the anti-apartheid struggle, the nature of settler colonial regimes, and the psychological manipulation of trauma narratives, particularly in relation to Zionism and the Holocaust, drawing parallels between the South African and Palestinian liberation movements. ## Detailed Analysis Tony Karon, in conversation with the hosts of 'Bad Hasbara', recounts his journey from a member of the Zionist youth movement Habonim in South Africa to an anti-Zionist activist. He emphasizes that the successful mass mobilization of the anti-apartheid movement, which involved building civic organizations and unions, was crucial, contrasting it with less impactful armed struggle. Karon explains that his critical perspective on Zionism was fostered within Habonim itself, where he encountered Jewish critiques of the Nakba, allowing him to "kosherize" the concept of ethnic cleansing by hearing it from fellow Jews. He elaborates on how Zionism constructs a narrative of perpetual victimhood through the "traumatization industry" surrounding the Holocaust, which he argues prevents a broader understanding of historical injustices and is used to justify current actions. Karon draws parallels between apartheid South Africa and Israel as settler colonial regimes, highlighting the psychological impact of international pressure and cultural boycotts, such as the disruption of sporting events in South Africa and the backlash against artists like Lord in Israel. He notes a significant cultural shift in public perception of Israel, citing the booing of Israelis at a Coldplay concert as evidence that the "information war has been lost." Karon stresses the importance of strategic activism focused on power dynamics, advocating for actions that weaken oppressive regimes, whether through mass organizing or cultural resistance, and suggests that even seemingly individual acts of defiance contribute to broader liberation movements. ### Interview Introduction - Introduction of Tony Karon, former editorial lead at AJ+ and South African liberation movement activist - Discussion of "Bad Hasbara" podcast, listener reviews, merch, and upcoming shows - Mention of the Gaza City Flower Fund and its charitable efforts ### Karon's Activist Journey - Early involvement in Habonim in South Africa and its influence - Realization of the Nakba and its impact on his views - The role of Jewish voices in challenging Zionist narratives - Critique of "prosthetic trauma" and Holocaust memory manipulation ### South Africa vs. Israel - Parallels between apartheid and Zionism as settler colonial regimes - The significance of mass movement building in South Africa - The impact of international pressure and cultural boycotts on regimes - The "End Conscription Campaign" as a model for weakening the state ### Contemporary Activism - Assessment of protests in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem - The role of social media in activism and its limitations - The "morbid dialectic" of online engagement vs. real-world action - Shifting public perception of Israel and Zionism - Cultural boycotts and their effectiveness, using the Coldplay concert example ### Strategic Politics - The importance of power dynamics in activism - Weakening the enemy camp through collective action - The strategic value of disrupting the status quo, even through individual acts of resistance - The concept of "dying in the dark" vs. visible struggle