We Are Witnessing The Return of Empires & The END of Nations | Aaron Bastani Meets Rana Dasgupta

Quick Overview

The conversation concludes that the modern nation-state, a recent construct finalized in the 18th and 19th centuries and historically reliant on imperial extraction to fund internal liberal achievements like democracy, is now facing divergence between state interests and popular interests, mirroring 18th-century Britain as economic production moves away from the general population, suggesting the post-WWII era of liberal democratic success correlated with Western industrial dominance is ending.

Key Points: The nation-state is a modern governmental form, finalized in the 18th and 19th centuries, relying on financial and technological achievements, including a monopoly over violence and propaganda to build shared nationhood. Many celebrated achievements of the nation-state, like democracy and human rights, were initially funded by extracting wealth from the rest of the world, creating a paradox where Western rights depended on depriving others. The Glorious Revolution in Britain (1688) initiated the capitalist liberal state, prioritizing free markets and property rights for a commercial elite over universal suffrage, which arrived centuries later. Contemporary America increasingly resembles 18th-century Britain where state interests diverge from the people's interests because AI and outsourcing mean the economy 'does not involve a lot of Americans' or benefit them. Radical critiques, such as those from Sayyid Qutb, view the secular liberal state as idolatrous or polytheistic because it demands allegiance due only to God, positioning Islamist critiques as enduring problems for the nation-state system. The historical correlation between massive industrialization in the West and democracy is breaking down; de-industrialization and AI suggest different political corollaries where the state may not need or benefit from broad popular political participation.

Context: The discussion features host Aaron Bastani interviewing Rana Dasgupta about his book, "After Nations: The Making and Unmaking of a World Order," which explores the historical origins, architecture, and potential demise of the nation-state system. The conversation delves into how nation-states, which are relatively new institutions, were formed by imperial powers like France and Britain, examining the religious and financial foundations underpinning their authority, and contrasting the British trajectory following the 1688 Glorious Revolution with the more theologically charged formation of the French state.